| Author | Message | ||
  Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 386 Registered: 10-2006 |
Eugene: Your words about Judges certainly coincide with my experience. By the way, congratulations on your online win with a watercolor in an oil painters world! AHughes798: I, like you, didn't paint for decades. Sometimes you just have to get a lot of life out of the way before you can dedicate enough focus to be really successful with painting. I haven't followed Eugene's work for long, but delightfully it pops up more and more in my circle. He is a fine example for me. | ||
Ahughes798 Junior Member Username: Ahughes798 Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thanks for all your comments!!! At that time in my life, my dad and I did not get along all that well. Objectively, he WAS kind of mean at that point in his life, LOL! We get along fine now, and I've sent him photos of my paintings and he admitted that he liked them. "Why did you quit doing art?" ummmm, dad.....but he's 93. I just say I got interested in other things, which I did. I learned how to play bass, and did music for a few decades, LOL! So, for the past 10 years or so I had been collecting watercolour supplies. I never used them. I decided in 2007 to take a watercolour class...because in order to get a grade, I'd have to use them. Worked like a charm! Wish I had started up again a billion years ago. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 518 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'M SURE THERE MUST BE SOME QUALIFIED NON-ARTIST JURORS AND JUDGES OUT THERE- - - I JUST HAVEN'T RUN INTO ANY! National shows almost always have artists as judges, but our local shows often use gallery owners, curators, art history majors, etc I actually do better in the big show than in the locals.. so l seldom enter shows that are judged by non-artists. Some years ago, a local art club had a juried show and announced that the juror was from the Philadelphia Museum of Art.. I investigated and found that she indeed did work at the museum---she managed the gift shop! | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2006 |
I do not feel you should be judging unless you do understand the basics, ie., composition, color theory, design and technique (as cited by Robert Genn). You might be able to chose the best of a group of an artist's paintings but such a Judge is a tremendous disservice to a group of painters with differing styles and/or mediums. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2008 |
I'd say it's possible to be a good judge without being a good artist, but you're much more likely to find a good judge who's also an accomplished painter. My sister isn't an artist but she surprises me with her inherent good grasp of artisic sense. I think she could be a competent judge and even a good judge with just a little more study into painting. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 731 Registered: 8-2006 |
April raises an interesting question in my mind. What do you think of art critics, or even judges at exhibitions, who themselves are rather poor painters, or who are totally incompetent as art instructors? As April said, she was being critiqued by someone (her father) who was not an artist himself, not "into art," but just knew what he "liked." Can people have an "eye" for good art and not be good, practicing artists themselves? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 730 Registered: 8-2006 |
April, I take your response to my question to mean that you view "encouragement" as the latter interpretation in my note: "having someone walk beside you noting things you are doing well, progress you are making, but also suggesting ways you could do some things better and showing you how to improve your skills and insight." I think that's a healthy view of "encouragement," or, as your other note says, "constructive criticism." I think that's what we hope for and want to offer to each other on this board. From what you say about "getting your butt kicked" in your drawing class, being shoved out of your "comfort zone" and seeing all that in a "good way," it sounds like you're getting beyond the crippling effects of your understandable, visceral anger at your father and his unkind and naive attempt to serve as an art critic for a 13-year-old by holding before you the artistic standards of Norman Rockwell. What was he thinking? Was he trying to help you see that the journey to true excellence would be long and hard, and hoping you would choose a more practical direction for your life? Or was he just challenging you to work harder and avoid too much pride in your present level of achievement -- to go ahead and jump off the high dive? Or was he just a mean dad? Rockwell was an artist to be admired, not primarily for his technical abilities, but even more for his ability to capture and portray the human experiences of his own time. Don't dislike Rockwell just because of the emotional connection to your father's thoughtless, hurtful remark. On the other hand, we all have our artistic preferences. I don't particularly enjoy hyper-realism either -- a looser, more impressionistic style speaks to me and seems to utilize more completely the unique characteristics of watercolor. In any event, Rockwell's is not the only admirable style or artistic insight. I am sure you have a developing style and view of life of your own through which you and others will find meaning and satisfaction. I hope you will share some of it on the board. P.S. -- I can almost see a Rockwell painting showing a young girl with an angry face holding a stick drawing of someone in her hand, with a red-faced father towering over her, scowling at her and pointing to a Rockwell portrait that he's holding in his hand. Can you? It's a rather absurd, almost funny picture isn't it? | ||
Ahughes798 Junior Member Username: Ahughes798 Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2008 |
April, would you view "encouragement" as meaning having someone offer unqualified praise for everything you do, or having someone walk beside you noting things you are doing well, progress you are making, but also suggesting ways you could do some things better and showing you how to improve your skills and insight? Well, no. I don't expect sunshine and bunny-rabbits at my every effort. I expect constructive criticism. My father didn't believe in constructive criticism. He was also not into art, or an artist...he just liked what he saw, dammit. Telling me that I suck at something doesn't really address or solve any problems, does it? I was 13 at the time my father told me I wasn't up to Rockwell standards, whatever those are. I guessed that that meant you had to do accurate drawings of days gone by, and I wasn't really interested. | ||
Ahughes798 Junior Member Username: Ahughes798 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2008 |
Boy oh Boy...I signed up for my first drawing class of my life, and am I ever getting my butt kicked! And I mean that in a good way. I have been way thrown outside my comfort zone! | ||
Joanna Senior Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 229 Registered: 10-2006 |
yesterday, Raymond Kowalski of Cleveland, Ohio, wrote: "A woman in my classes refuses to take suggestions. She likes the way things are and says she doesn't need improving. She says she doesn't have time to learn basics--composition, color theory, design, technique. She gets excited watching a demo, then ignores what she might have learned. She devotes a lot of time to her art, but she's not really improving. I'm at a loss to help her. Any thoughts?" }--- THIS IS AN ISSUE I face as a teacher. I recommend which materials from a large list and let people know why cheap paint and paper and brushes (like craft acrylic brushes and weak no-name paint) will make them hate watercolor. They still show up with that stuff after asking detailed questions and getting a long email from me about materials. (I recently sent them my wishlist from Cheap Joes with Am Journey and Kilimanjaro and Joe's brushes, all good stuff!! And not as pricey as in the stores. I bet none of them will order a thing and come in with worthless cr!p) They won't practice. If I hold a study class, with a technique in mind (demo then practice) a few refuse to even try it. They won't go home and practice, thinking the "magic" happens in class. It doesn't. I start a new class on Thursday and I expect the same bs. I plan to trick them (again) by holding a new theme; Our Town. We are going to take photos of the town and each week, do a picture from the town in one of my demo'd techniques (frisket, splashing/spraying, no drawing, graphite and wash, pen and wash, etc) Then we are going to hold a show of the final versions. If someone DOESN'T do their homework, they aren't in the show (I will be!) I tried giving toys out as motivating reward treats to kid students but then I was excoriated by some mom (indirectly, the coward)} for not giving the dahling her treat when dahling did not do her homework as the others did. Ah me. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 729 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, where is the cabin located? It's a beauty! By the way, you were the one who put us on to Robert Genn in an earlier post. He had a very good post today that speaks to the topic of this thread and the heartbreak that Alice shared with us: "Artists with low self-esteem ... From: Robert Genn Twice-Weekly Letter <rgenn@saraphina.com> ... To: grizrev@yahoo.com Subject: Artists with low self-esteem September 22, 2009 Dear Jack, About ten percent of the general population is supposed to have low self-esteem (LSE). Perhaps the percentage is higher among creative folks. Often generated in early life, the condition can interfere with artistic growth and success, to say nothing of life itself. The difficult-to-shake problem can sometimes be traced back to a disapproving or critical parent. Early peer ridicule or teacher misguidance can also be fingered. Even though they may be talented, artists who feel bad about themselves or carry feelings of hopelessness and the "Loser Syndrome" have a couple of strokes against them when they step up to the easel. Vital audacity is weakened. Deeming themselves not worthy of success, self-sabotage can win the day. "There, failed again," they say. Beating LSE is difficult and time consuming--often a therapist is needed to help edit the negative video the sufferer keeps running. On the other hand, close friendships and the buddy system can be useful. Here are a few ideas: The LSE sufferer needs to systematically let go of the ingrained negative myths and bad baggage that high-self-esteem people don't bother with. The original perpetrators ought to be identified and forgiven. The suffering artist needs to embark on a self-managed, measurable course of minor gains and accomplishments. Small paintings finished right down to varnish and signature, for example. Bit by bit, work by work, the sufferer gains tangible evidence that contradicts the ugly message in the old video. Participating in workshops also is valuable. LSE folks often spend considerable time alone, building a degree of skill they may not be aware of. In a workshop one sees further possibilities and has the warm proximity of fellow travellers. Our world is basically a good spot. Good buddies abound. The LSE sufferer can move through self-doubt to the simple confidence generated by shared studenthood. Success for LSE artists can be in the form of darned good art, being accepted or even loved by a community, the persistence of green feedback, or other winnings. Most are illusions anyway. Artists are beings of imagination. Failure can well be imagined, but so can success. With the good buddies and a patient, methodical approach, baggage can be laundered and progress made. Evolving art is a stellar route to acceptance, by others and by the self. Best regards, Robert PS: "Those with low self-esteem have one thing in common--on some level they share a deep-seated fear that there is something wrong with them and wonder if they may be unlovable or unacceptable." (Marilyn J. Sorensen, Ph.D.) Esoterica: Breaking the Chain of Low Self-Esteem by Marilyn J. Sorensen, is a good place to start. Some of my troubled friends had cameo appearances on every page. Not specifically aimed at artists, the book has a self-evaluating test so you can get an idea where you stand. Case studies, authoritative observations and practical advice are laid out to set a better path for those who don't think much of themselves." | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 516 Registered: 8-2006 |
Here's a commission I just finished. I don't enjoy doing these, but when a friend asks for it, what can you do? The owner is very proud of this cabin. So it had to be accurate. The only thing i had for reference was a photo and a magazine article. He hasn't seen it yet- hope e likes it. 1/2 sheet, arches 300# rough reference--  my painting--  | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 728 Registered: 8-2006 |
Robert Genn today offered some helpful advice on how to be both an "encouraging" and an honest teacher -- as well as hope for those who have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps: "September 8, 2009 Dear Jack, Yesterday, Raymond Kowalski of Cleveland, Ohio, wrote: "A woman in my classes refuses to take suggestions. She likes the way things are and says she doesn't need improving. She says she doesn't have time to learn basics--composition, color theory, design, technique. She gets excited watching a demo, then ignores what she might have learned. She devotes a lot of time to her art, but she's not really improving. I'm at a loss to help her. Any thoughts?" Thanks, Raymond. I've had the runaround from the same woman. It's quite endemic these days, with all the talk of freedom of expression and painting from the heart. All this heart stuff is one of the main reasons there's so much substandard art around. It's enough to make you think it doesn't matter. Accepting that many folks are just in it for the fun of pushing paint around, here are a few things you can do to get the girl to raise her standards: Without focusing on her, give short, low-expectation exercises that run against people's standard repertoire. Make them time sensitive (finish in twenty minutes) or media limiting (use only three colours). While telling students they can go their own sweet way if they wish, make the exercises fun and be prepared to give out cigars. Draw your students in with a sense of exploration and excitement. Give them the idea they've nothing to lose. It's a fact of life that some people don't want to learn. But I don't believe in just coming out and telling people their art is poor. You have to let them discover that for themselves. A useful ploy is to praise the work for whatever virtues you can find in it, however slim, then ask them to tell everybody how it might be improved. Teaching art is an art that sometimes requires a slightly devious approach. Many workshop students have a problem with the instructor-student axis. You need to invite other workshop participants to quickly chime in with their opinions. Further, you can sometimes effectively influence a student by quietly giving attention to another student who sits nearby. Other times, when addressing the whole group, you can hammer home specific points by making thoughtful eye contact with the slower learners. No matter how flawed, everybody is special. Best regards, Robert PS: "The best way to teach somebody something is to have them think they're learning something else." (Randy Pausch) Esoterica: In the conduct of your own affairs, understate and over-prove. Give well-planned, information-rich demos. Let folks make up their own minds and take what they want for themselves. Make your comments short and precise. Tenderness and your own humility count. People are human beings first and artists second. Thankfully, some will pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, no matter what you have to say. And while there will always be those who stay put, a properly conducted workshop can be a place of miracles. "The burned hand teaches best." (J. R. R. Tolkien)" | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 727 Registered: 8-2006 |
April, would you view "encouragement" as meaning having someone offer unqualified praise for everything you do, or having someone walk beside you noting things you are doing well, progress you are making, but also suggesting ways you could do some things better and showing you how to improve your skills and insight? | ||
Ahughes798 Junior Member Username: Ahughes798 Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2008 |
<<<encouragement>>>> I definitely agree with you here. } | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 726 Registered: 8-2006 |
April, I can feel both your anger and your grief over your childhood experience with your father. Such cruel destruction of another person's self confidence and effort is inexcusable. At the same time, you apparently have risen to the challenge. I hope you have found joy in your art and the skill you display. In the final analysis, self esteem is something we have to build for ourselves as we develop true excellence, no matter how difficult the challenges. Congratulations. I hope you took notice of my earlier post which expressed appreciation for suggestions (critiques) from experienced and proficient artists on this board that are well-informed, honest, constructive and KIND. Encouragement is one thing, but to receive nothing but praise for everything one produces seems a little empty and lacks a ring of truth and authenticity. It certainly does not offer insights for improvement and help with the development of our technical skills and artistic abilities. | ||
Ahughes798 New member Username: Ahughes798 Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2008 |
When I was 13, my dad said I sucked at art, and I gave it up then and there. He said it to my face. He wasn't an artist, and nothing I did looked like Norman Rockwell, his favourite...therefore, I sucked. It took me 35 years to start again. How good would I be now if I hadn't let him kill my self confidence(esteem)? God forbid people feel good about themselves. Self esteem is such a waste of time! People should be careful with their criticisms, and they should ALWAYS be constructive. "YOU SUCK AND HAVE NO HOPE" just doesn't cut it as a humane option. There is honesty...then there is tact, and then there is cruelty. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Sorry if this is a repeat post. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 702 Registered: 8-2006 |
George, I agree completely. It just seems that we have fallen off one extreme more than the other. I think the suggestions I have seen on this board are well-informed, honest, constructive and kind -- especially yours and Marie's -- and that does indeed provide motivation for continued growth. | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Griz, I agree with you but I also think it’s important to point out that both extremes can cause problems. Some have taken the self-esteem movement to the extreme by not giving any negative criticism. However, the opposite extreme is just as destructive. When only negative criticism is given, or the criticism is overly harsh, it can destroy the confidence needed to press onward and make improvements. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 701 Registered: 8-2006 |
Robert Genn has some interesting thoughts about what has been sacrificed to the god of self-esteem. My experience is that many other art boards on the internet are filled with undeserved praise of mediocre art in an attempt to build self esteem. They are really therapy groups and mutural admiration societies. I find this board much more honest and truly helpful, while also being supportive. Here are Genn's thoughts on this subject: "The flat trumpet of self-esteem May 8, 2009 Dear Jack, Back in the good old days, the Girl Guides used to get badges for accomplishments. Nowadays they're also getting badges for loving themselves. The self-esteem movement is an epidemic that's been sweeping parts of the Western World--claiming that even young girls need to feel good about themselves before they can do good things. I don't think so. I think you have to do good things to feel good. It's particularly noticeable in the art game. In some quarters, we go to a lot of trouble to help others feel good. These days some of us are getting all sorts of praise for just trying. The Internet is full of it. Jack writes to Bill: "Right on, Bill--I love your fence posts." Even though Bill's fence posts are substandard, he still gets approval and encouragement. I guess it's more democratic. Instead of measuring work against examples of excellence, we now honour mediocrity as well. Actually, it's human nature--it makes us feel comfortable, particularly if we're mediocre ourselves. What's going to become of a society that persists in this folly? No child left behind in the field means fewer peaks on the hill. True professionals don't stand for this nonsense. For one thing, they don't listen to non-authoritative commentary or ingratiating praise. They try to decide what excellence is, challenge themselves and bend their bones to make it happen. Actually, the whole self-esteem thing leads artists into marketing courses before they're producing creditable work. But just get reasonably good and the world will love and reward you. Stay bad and all the marketing in the world won't help you--and you'll end up thinking less of yourself, anyway. Quality deserves approval and gets it. Quality breeds success, cash flow and, curiously, genuine self-esteem because it's warranted. And while all artists, no matter how evolved, need a little perk from time to time, when you're on top of your game, you can take things less seriously. We once attended a concert where little tykes played solos on the piano, cello, violin and trumpet. It was all pretty cute, and we all applauded like mad, especially when one of the little people was ours. At the end, every last kid got a trophy or a ribbon. Some system. Best regards, Robert PS: "People thought that kids who felt good about themselves would get higher grades. They don't. They only feel entitled to get them." (Margaret Wente) Esoterica: "Self-esteem," says cognitive psychologist Martin Seligman, "cannot be directly injected. It needs to result from doing well, from being warranted." Artists need to consider this when awarding and receiving prizes and honours. I recently juried an art-club show where in my heart of hearts it seemed to me that no one deserved even an honourable mention. "You have to give prizes," the president told me, "or the club will collapse." I didn't. It didn't. Fortunately there was another juror available, so they gave my job to him." |
