| Author | Message | ||
  Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 602 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, the trick may be paying attention to the use of strong contrasting values. After all, what is pure white? "White" is created by the dark surrounds. Even though a part of the sheet may have been painted, washed, and left a little "sullied," a neighboring strong dark value can make it "white" again. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2006 |
What amazes me most in Jamison's work is his ability to keep his fresh look. Even though he sometimes washes out big sections, you'd never guess it! I find this very difficult. When I try this, it usually shows and looks overworked. But lately I think I've been a little more successful.. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 576 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eric, Chet Reneson's "Trout for Dinner" surely does have a similarity to Homer's wilderness works. You see in both their love of the outdoors. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 575 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, thanks, but I really don't need to be right. I just enjoy the exchange of thought. Actually, in rereading your post 356 and my post 571, I realize we are really saying the same thing, except that you say it better! While my post 572 may be "right," it really is mere speculation, and there is no evidence that it is so. Your speculation that Jamison was more apt to change his "supporting staff" than his key player certainly makes sense as well. Though he obviously puts his strength into his key statement or point of impact, I just didn't want to further speculate with you that his washing out was not done at the focal point for that reason (because of the strength of the emotional investment and effort he had in it.) Thanks for making room for my reservation about that one point.}} | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm sure you are right. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 572 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, you may have intended to say that Jamison went so immediately and strongly to his focal point that he did not have to change the strokes at the focal point. I doubt that. I imagine that every area of his painting, including the impact area, was "up for grabs" until the overall composition satisfied him. I imagine many focal points were washed out, just like his supporting areas, to create even stronger statements. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 571 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, I understand your reference to Jamison going strongly to the heart of his statement, the focal point or impact area. I agree. I was just noting that it appears that he often had to wash out a good many of the "every other stroke(s)" intended to support his statement as he decided to change his composition so that new strokes could support his focal point even more strongly. That's not a fault -- just an example of determination and willingness to make changes as his painting progressed, admitting any weaknesses he saw and rectifying them, sometimes even years later. | ||
Eric Junior Member Username: Eric Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2008 |
I ordered a couple of books I'm looking forward to reading: 1. Watercolor Workshop, Robert E. Wood. I read it once from my library but figured it was time to actually buy it. He's from the "West Coast" tradition of watercolor, along with Rex Brandt, Phil Dike, George Post, Milford Zornes, Millard Sheets, etc. 2. The Watercolors of Chet Reneson - I really like looking at his paintings. Reminds me of Homer, and also at times, John Pike. I'll give a full report after digesting them. http://www.chetreneson.com/ | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would guess that the "washing out" was not at the focal point, but making sure that every single other stroke said what it needed to say in the best possible way. Usually it is the supporting staff that needs to be replaced, shuffled around or fired. When doing a painting, one of the hardest things to do is get rid of an area of great color, shape or value that distracts from the statement. The better one is willing and able to do that, the greater possibility the painting has. This is easier said that done. Many people teach it but can't do it. Jamison is a master, which attracted me to his work in the first place. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 570 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, you are so right about the emotional content of Andrew Wyeth's painting as contrasted to Jamison! Wyeth's paintings are often filled with a mood of loneliness or foreboding, whereas Jamison's, though working with the same landscape, brings out the sense of peace and calm. When you mention Jamison's flawless composition achieved by going right to the heart of the statement and "every other" stroke going straight to that statement, don't forget that often he did not like where his original strokes went and washed them out. What you say is true of the final product, but be got there by erroneous strokes, correction, followed by more accurate strokes. At any rate, I'm sure you meant "every subsequent stroke," rather than "every other stroke." | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2006 |
A similarity between Jamison and Wyeth might be their flawless composition. I would not get their subject matter or emotional content mixed up. To me Jamison's work goes right to the heart of the statement, focal point, impact area, etc., and every other stroke supports that statement. His paintings do not contain emotional conflict. The feeling is clear. I find them peaceful. I could live in Jamison's paintings, whereas Wyeth's leave me with a sense of unease. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 568 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, I did take note of Jamison's practice of washing out large areas, which is why he tries to stick to non-staining paint. Seems he has a tendency to self-doubt or at least second-guessing himself -- but it's an act of courage to launch into a painting anyway, working by trial and error with a willingness to make large corrections as a normal procedure in working out a satisfying composition! Most of us are afraid that we have to get the composition right before we begin, either with value sketches or rigorous advance planning and thought, because subsequent correction would be so difficult. Jamison's approach certainly puts the lie to the belief that watercolors are more difficult to correct than oil or acrylic. Do you know what paper he normally uses? I haven't tried the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser, but I remember from former posts that you have, with good results. As you say, it seems to be a useful tool for minor corrections or achieving small whites without the need for washing out large areas. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 445 Registered: 8-2006 |
Griz ,,healthwise, --better than expected for a guy who has just turned 84. I don't think Phil has any strict rules for composition. It's more less intuition. He often wipes out big sections and repaints till it looks right and feels right to him. I've begun mask and wipe out smaller sections to make minor corrections , but i've never tried bigger stuff. Phil does it so well that you' d never see it. Have you tried Mr. Clean Magic eraser? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 567 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, it's good to hear from you. How are you doing healthwise? Thanks for the additional information about Phil Jamison. Obviously there is more to the similarity with Wyeth's painting than subject matter. I think the choice of paint must be similar. Tell me more about your own contact with these great painters. Can you comment further on their techniques and personal style. I'm especially interested in what you said about composition being especially important to Jamison. What is "good composition" from his point of view? | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 444 Registered: 8-2006 |
Griz interesting that you should compare Phil's work to Wyeth's. Phil lives in West Chester and Andrew lives in Chads Ford, Just a few miles apart. Their subjects are often more closely related than there techniques. I feel that they are both part of the Brandywine tradition. They have met a few times socially but are not close friends. Andrew's watercolors were very direct. I don't think he works n w/c anymore. Although Phil's paintings look slap=dash, he paints very slowly and methodically, often, after studying a painting for months he may wash out a whole section and repaints it. Composition is probably the most important factor in his thinking. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 561 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, Your thoughts are the same as mine. As I was reading the text, I noted his reference to his use of white saying that he tried to subordinate it in a way that as*ured it would not detract from the transparency of his watercolor, speaking of his painting as a whole. George in previous posts has tried to as*ure us that this can be done, but I have seldom seen it done this well. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2006 |
That is the book I have, also. I find his daisies fastinating. I don't think I've ever seen them painted so expressively. You will note that he uses permanent white to paint the daisies on (usually mixed with something else). I do not, have not and may not ever use white but I still haven't been able to paint daisies with such finess. This is, in my opinion, one of the few cases of an artist who's introduced white paint to a watercolor without distracting from the medium. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 560 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, I just received a copy of Phil Jamison's "Capturing Nature in Watercolor" through an interlibrary loan. Seems like a fine fellow and a thoughtful artist. His paintings remind me a great deal of Andrew Wyeth, whom I admire very much. I love the earth tones and moody renditions. The book is a delight. If you are in touch with him, give him my thanks. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 347 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thanks for the information Eugene. I'm going to watch for Phil Jamison's other book to add to my library. I think I've mentioned Powell's Books in Portland, in the past. Last week I found "How to Make a Painting" by Irving Shapiro, and "John Pike Paints Watercolors" by John Pike. Great additions! | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2007 |
Hey Eric, great site. I love the information here. Now I'm off to seek out more Rex Brandt and find out more about Phil Jamison--Thanks Eugene & Eric. | ||
Eric Junior Member Username: Eric Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2008 |
Here's a good site (Woody Hansen)for some reviews of books: http://www.allthingswatercolor.com/0.BookStore.html | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 548 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, Amazon.com lists two of Philip Jamison's books from other sellers at reasonable prices. No reviews are available. Why don't you do one? | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 442 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bonnie, Phil Jamison and his wife to be, Jane Grey and I were art school buddies at the Philadelphia Museum School in the late 40's. Jane died this past year, but Phil is still active, and has a wonderful art collection. His theory is that he knew little about the stock market, so he invested in art, which he knows very well. Smart guy,-he's done well. He remains my close friend, though we seldom see each other anymore. He lives in West Chester-- about 40 miles away, and we don't drive anymore. We're both in our 80's, Both his books are out of print and now sell used, for more than the publication price | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 545 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, thanks for the clarification. There is no doubt that painting with Ranson's hake brush forces you to give up painstaking fussing with details, which can be not only unnecessary but also introduces "clutter" on paper as well as in your mind that destroys the unity and impact of your painting. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2006 |
Grizrev: That was a slip---I mean't "clutter" not "color." Boy am I glad I didn't wait until next winter to check back! I really mean't the clutter that goes on in your head. | ||
Eric Junior Member Username: Eric Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2008 |
Speaking of Judi Wagner and Tony Van Hasselt, I just received in the mail an out-of-print book by them called "Painting with the White of your Paper" that I ordered from Amazon. In addition to their own paintings it features paintings from others including Marilyn Simandle, Tony Couch, George Delaney, Frank Webb, Dan Burt and several others. The book is making me more aware of the importance of white paper to get sparkle and freshness. I'm also seeing the value of restraint and "less is more" in producing a fresh, crisp watercolor painting. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 542 Registered: 8-2006 |
Whitewatercolor, I understand! Good luck with all you have on your plate this summer. I'll look forward to hearing more next winter. By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by learning from Ron Ranson how to "get rid of the color." Your painting is most colorful. I suppose you mean using the squinting technique to see values and the general components of your composition before you begin to paint with those wonderful colors? | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2006 |
I hate to admit that it will probably be winter before I can get back to the DVDs. I'm in the busy season now. I'm doing four art festivals this summer and a three month show beginning July 1st. Plus I'm organizing a local plein air group every Tuesday. All this and I still have to keep up my inventory in the store. But, I am still on the search for knowledge--anybody know anything about Alvaro Castagnet? I find his work pretty breathtaking. I just found his book through Amazon for $80+. I guess it is hard to get in the US. A friend of mine took a class from him in Victoria, BC and her head is spinning. She's a career artist and taken classes from many people, including Szabo and Webb. Anybody know anything? I read reference to Phil Jamison on this thread. I have to say one of my first watercolor purchases was a used book by him of his work (which I've just spent a half hour looking for and can't lay my hands on). To me his work is incredibly moving and emotional. It speaks to me. Sometimes I think great artists get overlooked because they are not in the right place at the right time, born into the right family, don't have the right connections, are in the shadow of another contemporary, etc. And Grizrev, thank you for the comments about my painting. Ron Ranson gives a really simple, direct way of "seeing" the composition that allows you (or me at least) to get rid of the color and right to the point. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 541 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, It's interesting to note how similar Wagner, Couch, and Hasselt are in the freshness and vibrancy of their painting styles, which must be due in part to their faithfulness in applying the principles (harmony, balance, gradation, contrast, etc.) of design to the elements (size, shape, line, etc.) Though Whitney was supposedly the master, I think their paintings surpass Whitney's. I think Whitney's impact is more due to his colorful teaching than his actual painting, as well as the enduring importance of what he taught, which, as we know, was not original with him. Whitewatercolor, it's good to see you posting again -- and I'm sorry you lost your long post. I would love to have read it. I know how frustrating losing that kind of effort can be -- thoughts that can never be reclaimed in exactly the same way! I did want to say that your post 301 reminds me of the Hasselt, Wagner and Couch style in its directness, sureness, and freshness. By the way, can you give us reviews of the other DVDs you watched this winter (see your post 302). Would like to know your thoughts. | ||
Eric Junior Member Username: Eric Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2008 |
With all this talk about Whitney, and I don't think I can recall any discussion about his West Coast counterpart, Rex Brandt. He was part of the California group and was a well-respected teacher. I know he died a few years ago. Has anyone here taken part in his workshops or those of any of Brandt's students? | ||
Eric Junior Member Username: Eric Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2008 |
For some of those interested in the Ransom book about Whitney which came out in 1994, here's a list of the artists featured in the book: Skip Lawrence Cheng-Khee Chee Tony Couch Robert Conlan Judi Wagner Frank Webb Joan Rudman Barbara Nechis Betty Lou Schlemm Henry Fukuhara Joan Ashley Rothermel Tony Van Hasselt Sanford & Virginia Brooks Carolyn Blish The book contains several paintings of each artist, along with comments about the paintings and how they relate to Whitney's teachings. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 440 Registered: 8-2006 |
Judy wagner, Couch, and Van Hasset stick to close to Whitney's teaching, But Skip Lawrence has abandoned him completely | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2006 |
I typed out a long response here but screwed up trying to post it and lost it. I'd just like to sum it up as thanks for all the information you guys have provided here. It is very helpful and informative. I guess I haven't read the thread for months. Good stuff! | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 539 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eric, Ron Ranson rightly calls our attention to Wesson, Yardley and Chamberlain as fellow Brits (though Ranson now lives in America) who well represent the looseness and freshness of the Impressionist style. Yardley's book is especially good, out of print, and expensive (I sold mine!). I'm glad you're hanging on to your copies of Tony's books -- I am too. Ranson's book on Whitney with comments by his students does include an impressive list. A number of them have moved away from Whitney into their own very different personal styles, but Couch remains a very loyal disciple! | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2008 |
Jcator, that "Learn the Edgar Whitney Way" book is great. What an outstanding tribute to Whitney. If you enjoy that book, you might be interested in another Ransom book called "Watercolor Impressionists" where he interviews several artists and shows examples of their paintings. Frank Webb and Couch are included along with several British guys like Edward Wesson, Trevor Chamberlain and John Yardley. Eugene's friend Philip Jamison is there also. I'm not sure, but I'll bet it's out of print, but it's worth seeking out. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2008 |
Couch's "Watercolor: You Can Do It" is a great book. However, if you want to get into more detail on design, Couch's "Keys to Successful Painting" is better in that area. Unfortunately, it's been out of print for several years. You can find it online but it might cost a lot. He has another book that might also be out of print called "Watercolor Techniques" or something like that. Again this is more detail on techniques than "You can do it". So essentially, "You Can Do It" is an overall watercolor book while the other two specialize in either design or technique. I have all three so I'm covered. | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2007 |
Howdy Grizrev, I'm going to have to pay more attention to Tony Couch. In the book I mentioned, Learn Watercolor the Edgar Whitney Way, the author interviewed 14 artist, including Tony Conch, Skip Lawrence, Judi Wagner, Frank Webb, and Tony Van Hasselt. There is a chapter devoted to each one and they discuss how Whitney influenced their work. It's a well done book. I'm going to have to look for Tony's books next. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 538 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jcator, Tony Couch is one of Whitney's students and is probably one of his strongest proponents today. His book, "Watercolor: You Can Do It," presents the heart of Whitney's thinking. | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2007 |
Eric, when I picked up the Ted Kautzky book and thumbed through it, his work reminded me of Herb Olson's art, although it is hard to find information about both of these artist. I knew that it must be a pretty good book, it's still being printed and I believe the first edition came in the late 1940s. Lately I'm reading Ron Ranson's Learn Watercolor the Edgar Whitney Way--it's interesting to me how Whitney influenced so many artist working today and I love the tie-in to Graves and O'Hara. This is a another good read. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 438 Registered: 8-2006 |
Right-- some of the old books are still the best. Kautzky and John Pike are still the best basic books around. No tricks, just good basic transparent techniques. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2008 |
Yeah, there's a few tumbleweeds blowing around here. What do you think of the Kautzky book? I think it's one of the best I own. For beginners, the exercises he has in painting with only two colors and then three, and then four are very worthwhile. Kautzky died way too early. I believe he was only 52 and suffered a heart attack while he was out painting. | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2007 |
It has been awfully quiet around here for a few weeks. I managed to nab a copy of Maitland Graves' The Art of Color and Designer (copyright 1951, 2nd edition) off of eBay a few weeks ago. I'm not disappointed--this was a really good suggestion. I have been reading from it every night before I go to bed. I also lucked out at the library the other day. They were selling a bunch of old books in a sidewalk sale. I scored a copy of Ways With Watercolor, by Ted Kautzky (copyright 1963), for a dollar. Hard to beat that deal. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2008 |
Jcator- Thanks for the Herb Olsen find. I briefly looked at it, and it looks like there's some good stuff there. FYI- the Graves book isn't really about watercolor, it's all about design concepts. Just wanted you to know in case you were expecting watercolor. | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2007 |
Thanks for the tip on The Art of Color and Design book by Maitland Graves. I'm homing in on a copy now. I have a few books by Eloit O'Hara, John Pike, Ted Kautzky and Ed Whitney. I enjoy finding/reading out-of-print books by artist like these. I was in the Half-Price Bookstore a few months back and came across a book titled Herb Olsen’s Guide to Watercolor Landscapes (Copyright 1965). I had never heard of Herb Olsen but love his work in this book and at $3.99, it was a super bargain. I googled his name and found Watercoloring.org -- it's not obvious at first glance but this Web site is basically an online version of his 1955 book called Watercolor Made Easy. There is an index in the left column of this site that will take you to each chapter--complete with scans of the original black & white photo’s and illustrations (some are in color). It’s fascinating to browser through this site. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2008 |
Speaking of pushing color to the extreme, Tom Lynch has a new book out called "Watercolor Rescue" which might be helpful to some. A lot of watercolor instruction books tend to be the same old thing. This one is different. He shows student's artwork and then he actually paints on the student's painting to improve it, or crops it in a different way, along with reasons for making the changes. This is what he does in workshops during critiques. It's kind of shocking to some students to see him paint on their "masterpiece" or tear it into two pieces. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 437 Registered: 8-2006 |
I took a landscape workshop with Don several years ago, and really enjoyed it. He's a fun teacher and very friendly and helpful. However, I think his figures are far superior to his landscapes. I find his landscapes a little garish for my taste. He pushes color to the extreme and does it well. If that's what your after,GO FOR IT. | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 460 Registered: 8-2006 |
I like Don Andrews' book on the figure. I haven't checked out his landscape book. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2008 |
Has anyone looked at Don Andrews' book which came out a couple of years ago, "Interpreting the Landscape in Watercolor?" It looks good, but not sure I want to spend $33.50. He also has several DVDs which I would appreciate any feedback on. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 536 Registered: 8-2006 |
Great reflections from you both, Eugene and Eric. Things don't go well until you understand and internalize important truths (call them laws of nature, rules, "givens," or whatever). Some of us learn them the hard way, by doing things "wrong" (or, as Eric points out, at least unsatisfactory ways) until we figure out (or someone helps us see) how to do them "right." Then, as Eugene says, these principles become such a part of us that we don't have to apply them in a mechanical way but rather as part of who we have become as artists. Of course, there are those who resist the idea of "rules" and value the freedom (anarchy?) of doing things any way they please, calling the results creative. It's somewhat like drawing the bullseye around the place their arrow happened to lodge! If enough people agree with them and don't call attention to the fact that the king has no clothes, their approach may actually become a new school or style of painting! Isn't art wonderful? To be fair and less cynical, this is no doubt the way new discoveries are made and new techniques developed. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 436 Registered: 8-2006 |
I think I've read all the books on design, and I think value sketches are helpful, but after you are familiar with the basis, I think you learn to rely on intuition. Too much planning can result in s rather stiff, uninteresting painting. I was fortunate in having spent many years as a graphic designer, which trained me in the basics. Today, i seldom make value sketches-- but only because of the years of experience. | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Jack, I'll send you an e-mail. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2008 |
Grizrev, you're certainly right about planning. When I make my little value sketches using grey markers and the sketch looks good, the resulting painting is almost always is successful. It allows you to almost "attack" the painting with, like you said, vigor and decisiveness. As for an intuitive feel for design, I know I didn't really know where to begin when I was learning watercolor in that area until I stumbled into Whitney, Couch, Webb, and many other outstanding instructors. For example, I'd paint and use local colors and end up using many colors and know from looking at the finished painting that something wasn't right. But I didn't know how to go about organizing the color scheme. The same was true for values. I would paint something, it wouldn't look right, but I didn't know why until I learned about organizing values into a pattern. So for me, "intuitively" I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know how to fix it until it was pointed out to me. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 535 Registered: 8-2006 |
George, good to hear from you. How is your work going on the present project you mentioned some time back -- can you tell us more about it? You are no doubt correct about the use of the elements and principles of design. My thoughts simply reflect what is comfortable for me. I get hung up and too often into backtracking and correction when I try to work out design in the actual process of painting. A few good value studies before beginning give me a path I can run with. On transparency, of course the pigments themselves are not transparent. It is the way they act and disperse in application that creates the transparent effect. | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Jack, it’s really all about individual personality. Some people have a need (and/or the talent) to paint with an intuitive feel for design. While others have a preference for, and the patience required, to follow design principles in the actual PROCESS of painting without becoming too hesitant and self-conscious. Still others are more comfortable, and successful with doing time-consuming preliminary design studies. Most watercolor teachers have difficulty judging a student’s personal artistic needs and desires. Most watercolor teachers also have difficulty judging the point in a student’s skill development at which the student is ready to begin thinking about design. As the result of the appalling lack of quality instruction in watercolor a cookie cutter approach is far too often the norm. Eric, (from another thread) according to science watercolor pigments aren’t really transparent. But, your implication is correct; I do get my jollies by blowing holes in watercolor myths. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 534 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eric, it's good to have you back! I've commented before on the importance of the 7 elements and 8 principles of design that Ed Whitney articulated so well. There is a lot of truth in the admonition to spend most of our time planning a painting -- it allows more vigor and decisiveness in the actual process of painting, which results in a much more appealing painting. However, that having been said, don't you think most of us have an intuitive feel for design -- for what's going to "look right?" We often see the elements and principles of design validated in retrospect -- the kind of realization that says: "Oh, that's why that worked so well!" The problem with trying to follow design principles in the actual PROCESS of painting is that we become too hestitant and self-conscious, and the painting becomes "wooden" and feels like "painting by the numbers." If we want to think about design principles, it should be at the planning stage -- then, when we paint, it can just "flow." | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2008 |
More on Graves: He was on the faculty with Ed Whitney at Pratt Institute in New York. Whitney learned watercolor from the legendary Eliot O'Hara but used the design principles from Graves to come up with his way of teaching that put a big emphasis on design. | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 459 Registered: 8-2006 |
I second the recommdations of the Maitland Graves book. You can find it used on Amazon. I paid about $50 for my copy. The Frank Webb book is also excellent. Also, there are two other books that have good info on composition and design. * Jeanne Dobie - Making Color Sing. I like the sections that deal with composition and design mor e than the sections about color. * Alex Powers - Painting People in Watercolor: A Design Approach has some great pointers on composition and design. | ||
Eric New member Username: Eric Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2008 |
Just to expand on Joe's post, the Maitland Graves book (I forgot the title, the Art of Color and Design?) was a huge influence to Ed Whitney and then to his students, including Frank Webb and Tony Couch. It was published in the 1950's. Speaking of Webb and Couch, they have written excellent books on composition. I forgot the title of Webb's book, but Couch's is out of print and called "Keys to Successful Painting". His "Watercolor: You can do it" has the same info, just not in as much detail as the other book. | ||
Joe Advanced Member Username: Joe Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2007 |
Maitland Graves wrote an excellent book on composition. | ||
Jeans New member Username: Jeans Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2008 |
Thank you so much - I'll check on those two books. I appreciate your recommendations! | ||
Jcator Junior Member Username: Jcator Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2007 |
Howdy Jeans, I just purchased a North Light Book titled Mastering Composition, by Ian Roberts, and I’m very happy with it. It’s a new 2008 publication and it features lots of examples and some good demonstrations. I choose this book after reviewing pages of it with a feature on the North Light Book Club Web site that allows you to browse and read through about 30 pages of the book. Another book I have had for a few years, by Robert Lovett, is called The Art of Designing Watercolors. I really like this book also. It’s full of examples and the author goes into a lot of detail. I really like the way he explains his “7 Tools of Design”, and “8 Arrangements of Design” -- and then he uses these to analysis and demonstrate lots of examples. I have been very satisfied with both of these. | ||
Jeans New member Username: Jeans Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2008 |
What are some of the best books on composition and design? - the ones that some of you have found to be helpful. Thanks! | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2006 |
Oh my goodness! I just pulled out Roycroft's book and Handprint is exactly right. I expect one of these authors may get really upset about this. They even show both pallettes with the paint placement. I also noticed that both have extensive graphic design backgrounds--who knows, maybe they are friends and this is all be agreement. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 483 Registered: 8-2006 |
Rekha, in regard to your post 414, in all fairness we should post Bruce's final sentence that immediately follows your Handprint quote, lest it seem that the "plagarist" is Engle: "Visitors to this site testify that the order in which the books were published may not indicate the actual priority." | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thank you for the Handprint reference. I read the article and the author wonders if it was Engle who was the pioneer of these methods. I agree with his asessment(misspelled to avoid the red dots) of Engle's work. I will definitely be checking back to handprint. It does look like some valuable information may be found there. Thanks Rekha and Marie | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 452 Registered: 8-2006 |
Handprint is http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/water.html, written by Bruce McEvoy, who used to post on this board sometimes. It's a terrific resource for watercolorists. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 423 Registered: 8-2006 |
I do apologise. Here's the webpage; you may want to read the bottom of the page http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/book5.html | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2006 |
What the heck is Bruces handprint? I just did a google search and got a couple of personal artist websites. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 422 Registered: 8-2006 |
Not my observation but as I pointed out I took it from Bruce's handprint. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have Roycroft's book and didn't even notice the similarity. I don't know how long Roycroft has been painting, but there is a good chance he was instructed by Engle. I will go back and see what pigments he uses. For some reason his book or work doesn't inspire me the way Engle's does. Did you read a review of this comparison somewhere or is it from your own observations? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 471 Registered: 8-2006 |
I should have said "incorporating" rather than "incorporated," but I'm sure everyone figured out what I meant. Am I obsessive/compulsive about stuff that really doesn't matter? But, of course, words do matter, don't they? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 470 Registered: 8-2006 |
The word in red dots in the last post was "as*imilating." Can't we get rid of the red dot police? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 469 Registered: 8-2006 |
Rekha, Is there really anything new under the sun? All of us have learned from others, ••••••••••• their thoughts and knowledge and incorporated it into our own. It seems that the plagarism police are having a field day in our litigious culture! Should Obama have spoken with copious verbal footnotes, citing thoughts from various friends? Were Hillary's closing words in last night's debate actually those of her husband, or John Edwards? Who knows, and who cares? I understand that presenting someone else's entire research or writing as your own is a lie -- i.e., putting your name on the cover as the author of "Farewell to Arms." But who has the time to sort out where every thought in our heads and speech originated -- and who would want to listen to someone who tried to speak with that kind of documentation? | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 414 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bonnie, I think it was Bruce (handprint) who wrote "... have to mention the mirror similarities between Engle's paintings, methods and themes, and those in Fill Your Watercolors with Light and Color by Roland Roycraft — published 9 years before Engle's book. These similarities are so many and so intimate (right down to the exact same placement of the exact same Winsor & Newton paints on the exact same white butcher's tray palette) that it's obvious one of these artists is blatantly imitating the other, without giving credit where credit is due"...handprint | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 302 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think Ranson cuts to the point. He lays it out in such a way that right after watching his videos, I could look out the window, set up compositions, simply the material and lay it out in a simple, clear manner. Great inspiration. I did buy all of my dvd's/videos from Joes and I will go through them and make some comments. Also I recently bought Nita Engle's 2007 book, "How to Make a Watercolor Paint Itself." I'd probably give it a best watercolor book of 2007 award. I'm interested in what others think. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 465 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bonnie, We must have been posting at the same time. I like your painting -- you keep getting better and better! | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 464 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks, Bonnie. It's good to hear from you again! Can you give us the names of the Ron Ranson videos? In fact, could you give us the names of all the videos you bought, and maybe just a brief summary of what you think the strengths and weaknesses of each one are? Sharing your reactions is not being negative, just analytical, and we all understand that it is just your personal reaction and a*sessment. Did you buy all of the videos (DVDs?) through Cheap Joe's? By the way, I like Ron Ranson (the English ex pat) and his big brush style (the hake takes a little time to master -- other big brushes work in a similar way) with its loose technique too! He accomplishes amazing results without needing to obsess over minor details with little brushes. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2006 |
Here is the painting. I hope it is small enough to post this time!  | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 300 Registered: 10-2006 |
It was me (whitewatercolor). I'm going to try not to make negative statements about the videos, so I'll start with the best. I bought three of Ron Ranson's DVDs and found them to be wonderful, refreshing and pure. He is a master of the art. I watched all three of them and couldn't wait to get a brush in my hand. I turned around to my pallette and immediately painted a painting that sold within a couple weeks of hanging. I'll post it here. I'm currently looking at getting into one of his workshops. He apparently lives about 80 miles from me. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 449 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bonnie (Whitewatercolor), Help me. I can't remember what thread, or what poster, said they were buying a bunch of watercolor instructional videos to carry them through the winter and would report on which ones they found especially helpful. Was that person you? If so, what have you discovered? If not, do you recall who that poster was? | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Thank You! | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 407 Registered: 8-2006 |
Turner as Draughtsman (2006, Wilton): my post no. 393 Oct 25 2007 on this thread | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Rekha, I just finished reading a book about Turner and remembered something you had said on this thread about sublimation. According to the book I read, Turner had multi-year sexual relationships with at least two women. He also had a daughter by his last lover. He also drew pornographic sketches and watercolors that were found among his belongings after his death. What was your source concerning the alleged sublimation? | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Rekha, my favorite watercolor artist is Homer. But, Turner was the master of light in watercolor. I can’t think of another watercolor artist that could create the illusion of light with the subtlety found in a Turner watercolor.  | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 397 Registered: 8-2006 |
You know, George, I could never admire Turner's work, and after reading this book I know why: he was always after sublimation. Also he used to evade putting figures in the landscape paintings because he couldn't draw figures (Marie could give him a lesson or 2!!). So there! | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Rekha, this is a fascinating story. I was aware that watercolor artists did this in layers of pigment, but I didn’t know they had done it in layers of paper. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. http://www.jstor.org/view/00076287/ap030602/03a00030/0 | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 396 Registered: 8-2006 |
Oh, and by the by, the latest missive came about as I was looking for a reference that would take me to the author himself. Instead I found in the reference list the small description that explains all. Sorry. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 395 Registered: 8-2006 |
George, that might not be altogether accurate nor possibly my statement about the type and weight of paper used for these paintings. Here is why: The reference that Wilton has used has this written against it There are parallels in contemporary portrait drawings by, for example, John Dowman, who touched the backs of faces with red chalk that would 'glow' through the thin paper to suggest the flush of healthy flesh. See Butlin, Joll and Wilton (1983 pp. 159.61), and Christine MacKay, 'Turner's "Llandeilo Bridge and Dyneover Castle"', Apollo (Jun 1998, pp. 383-5). If anyone can get their hands on these journals from the library and tell us more it would be appreciated. | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Eugene, that’s how I read the quote Rekha posted. It’s all about creating enhanced luminosity through value contrast and contrast in transparency. I’ll repost part of the quote with my interpretation within parentheses. “to lay in a broad approximation of the composition of his picture on the back (bottom) sheet (layer) of the paper (painting) thus (in consequence) reinforcing the dark (low value) areas (that lie above it) with earth (heavier) colours that reduced the transparency (increase the opacity) of the medium (watercolor) while using very light (high value, and transparent) pigments (colors), or none (white paper only), in the sky, which was by that means (the end result) supposed (believed) to have enhanced (improved) luminosity (the illusion of light in the painting)” -OR- to simply substitute my words, it reads; “to lay in a broad approximation of the composition of his picture on the bottom layer of the painting with the consequence being to reinforce the dark or low value areas of the painting with heavier colours that reduced the transparency and increase the opacity of those areas while using very light, high value, and transparent pigments in the sky. The end result was believed to have improved the illusion of light in the painting” Do you agree? | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 389 Registered: 8-2006 |
George, please explain in simple words "enhanced value contrast" | ||
George Unregistered guest |
Yes, it is possible to enhanced luminosity via enhanced value contrast. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2006 |
He was using whatman wove 140lbs/in sq. | ||
Joanna Intermediate Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2006 |
Maybe the type of paper Turner was using is important here. I have no idea what he used, whether wove, cp, hot press or rough. Perhaps he used a thinner paper. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 393 Registered: 8-2006 |
Is this possible? ...in the years around 1800 when attempting the grand manner in watercolour: to lay in a broad approximation of the composition of his picture on the back sheet of the paper thus reinforcing the dark areas with earth colours that reduced the transparency of the medium while using very light pigments, or none, in the sky, which was by that means supposed to have enhanced luminosity...Turner as Draughtsman (2006, Wilton) | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 313 Registered: 8-2006 |
Some time ago, Marie wrote about Sargent and Eugene agreed: * Superb drawing, both with a pencil and a brush. Even though I consider him more painterly than draftsman-like, his drawing is extraordinarily accurate without being labored. * Phenomenal control of value. Take a look at his watercolors in black and white; it's amazing. * Brushwork and judging the wetness of the paper. He knew just when to go in with exactly the right amount paint on his brush. You don't get second tries with the way he would go into wet paper with a single bravura brushstroke. Looking at his watercolors is almost like watching a ballet to me. It's not so much that he could do this particular technique or that particular technique, but that he could choreograph the parts together in time. It's really almost as much performance as it is painting ... and I find it incredibly exciting. I have been puzzled till I read Richard Schmid's Alla Prima and it all makes sense now: I remember thinking as I was doing this portrait (in 1987), that it might have been the way John Singer Sargent painted. (What presumption!) Sargent departed nine years before I was born; therefore, I could not have known (not precisely) how he did it. No one knows, even though people might still be alive today who actually watched him paint. The best thing I can say now is that my painting only looks like his style-and his earliest student period at that. Actually, other paintings, such as those on pages 20, 50, 70, and 161, more nearly resemble his mature work. The few words he left us, along with some descriptions by his family, students, and friends, are merely tantalizing hints about his procedures. Nevertheless, I feel now that I have reached a stage where I can correctly extrapolate things from his paintings (and the methods of other direct painters of his time), which I feel are true. I know without doubt that he was very careful, and probably did not paint rapidly; his surface brushwork only looks like he did it fast. I also know that he constantly compared his painting to his model, and that he placed his canvas (when he could) as close to his subject as possible so he could view the two side by side from a distance of probably 8 to 12 feet. He must have made judgments about the accuracy or inaccuracy of each brushstroke, and what to do next-from that same distance. Clearly, he must have squinted at his subject, but opened his eyes to paint. I know little about his paints or brushes or other materials-such things do not matter anyway because they have almost nothing to do with his technique. | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 322 Registered: 8-2006 |
Yes, I have "Robert Wade's Watercolor Workshop" and it's one of my favorites, with lots of solid material. His DVD, "Watercolor Wade's Way" is another favorite -- and I don't tend to like watercolor videos and DVD's. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 280 Registered: 8-2006 |
I really like Robert Wade's books? does anyone else? | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 317 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks for the info. "Watercolor Fares Forth" -- I know it's *somewhere* in the house ... but where? Sigh. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 295 Registered: 8-2006 |
Marie, in the chapter Shadows on local colors from the book watercolor fares forth O'Hara describes the difficulty of obtaining the colour in pigments because light has more than twenty times the strength of all the colours available in pigments. There is no mention of values. Is this what you were after? | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2006 |
I found that exercise in "Watercolor Fares Forth." What a valuable piece of information regarding values. Powell's has really advanced by art knowledge. One of my favorite passtimes is being dropped off there and spending hours looking through the art books. | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 315 Registered: 8-2006 |
About the O'Hara books. One of the O'Hara books has a great exercise about why you can't copy the values you see in nature. I know I have a copy of the book, but I can't find the book and I can't remember which of the books contains the exercise. Does anyone with the O'Hara books remember this exercise? Or do you remember which book contains the exercise? | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 314 Registered: 8-2006 |
Powell's is awesome! Last time I went to Portland I bought so many books that it took two trips to get them to the checkout counter. They had to ship the books to me because there was no way I could have carried them on the airplane. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2006 |
I found reference to all of his books. In Portland, Oregon, there is a book store called Powell's whose main store covers a city block and is three stories high. They sell new and used books. You can sign up on their website to receive notification if they find a old book that you'd be interested in. I've signed up to be notified of all Eliot O'Hara's books that I don't have. Through continual browsing of the shelves of this store, I have found some wonderful books over the years. The art book section of the main store is as big as a warehouse. They have computer access to the entire stock at numerous locations throughout the store. It is one of the seven natural wonders of Portland, or the Northwest. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 294 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bonnie, I realised and possibly you did too that Eliot O'Hara wrote books other than watercolor fares forth and making watercolor behave. These are making the brush behave, watercolor portraiture and art teacher's primer. The instructions in all of these books are explicit, illustrated fully and comprehensive; these are just not found in the present day watercolour books for the novices, having been replaced by colour. For example, in making the brush behave, one of the brush strokes I found interesting was smooth at one edge and rough on the other - I just don't see it in the current books  And the added bonus, the book was signed by the great man himself.  | ||
Suzy Member Username: Suzy Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2006 |
There is an artist named Robert Burridge that offers a free newletter emal that is definatly worth the read. He is an acrylic painter but his theory and methood of explaining composition, value, color, etc is really quite good. You can sign up at www.robertburridge.com | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2006 |
I thought that might be the case but wasn't quite sure. Thanks Bonnie | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would think the area starting at the bottom edge of the clouds. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 282 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eugene, In John Pike's Watercolor it is written To gain the clouds' softness, it was necessary to keep the whole upper area wet. After this was painted and allowed to dry, clear water was added to the underside, and the dark mountain tops were dropped .... By underside does he mean the nonpainted side or below the clouds? | ||
Terry Intermediate Member Username: Terry Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2006 |
A thread is actually a sub-topic under a particular topic category (WC Artists Topics, etc). Individual posts within the sub-topic level or thread can be moved around under different headings but the whole subtopic cannot be broken up by itself. I guess Rekha's solution (to put a url placeholder) directing people to another sub-topic is the best way to handle it at this time. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 271 Registered: 8-2006 |
Or the message 'continue on to the next thread' can be added as the last message to the first thread | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 270 Registered: 8-2006 |
What is your suggestion for resolving the difficulty in opening long threads, perhaps, Terry has a solution | ||
Kisha Unregistered guest |
I really dislike changing threads in midstream. I think it is prevents continuity and context . If some respond to messages in the first thread and some to messages in the second thread you have real chaos. I think this practice is shortsighted and not a good idea. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 269 Registered: 8-2006 |
Part 1: http://community.cheapjoes.com/forum/messages/25/1561.html?1172934474 This thread was getting bulky as well, hence the new thread. Eric, you infected me with the book bug. I was reading about Edward Seago, Edward Seago: The Other Side of the Canvas (Jean Goodman) in which she mentions that, Ted as he was known, was self taught with the book by Alfred East, The Art of Landscape painting in oil colour. I am waiting for the book and hope to get even half as much as Seago got out of it. Jean describes him as a sick boy who went and joined the circus so he could paint there, developed painting in infrared paints to execute espionage work and he was a practical joker: __There was a titled lady whom regarded as the local snob. On his way over to visit Priestman (an artist who was Seago's mentor) in his little open baby Austin, he had seen the lady standing on the roadside, holding out her hand to ask for a lift. He had slowed down, leant over, cheerily shaken her outstretched hand and driven on. __Another time he chloroformed a pig and put it in the back of his car to take a dance as revenge on a hostess who had once slighted him. At the dance he planted the unconscious animal behind the sofa examining it when his hostess and a partner came into the room, switched off the light, settled themselves on the sofa, and were soon involved in passionate embraces. The unwilling witness decided to attempt a surreptitious getaway but when he had crawled half-way across the floor the pig grunted. The startled couple switched on the light and were shocked to see a guest crouched on all fours in front of them. 'I am just looking for my cigarette lighter' was the best excuse he could muster. __One farmer kept his dogs chained so he went and cut them loose. |
