| Author | Message | ||
  Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hey, "A" (catchy name...) "new gamboge" or gamboge hue is different pigments depending on mfg. I agree arylide yellow is about as pure a yellow as you can get; neither the green of lemon or the golden-orange of a cadmium dark yellow. Maimeri makes a very nice fine yellow, so does Holbein. Joe's American Journey is Davinci by another name and the bumblebee yellow is nice; new gamboge was a bit more orange if I recall. Their carrier is a bit more chalky. (the stuff that holds the pigment to make it set down on paper.) I loved the original gamboge despite its flaws because it did dilute to such a beautiful clear pure yellow tint and nothing really compares. And no one taps the garcinia cambodia anymore for the latex though I think a relative provides the fruit for weight loss capsules (The resin is toxic. It was collected into spils of bamboo as maple syrup or rubber is collected, then the resin broken out of the bamboo as the raw pigment. This is gamboge, cambodian gum, gummi gutta, etc.) | ||
A Unregistered guest |
Just for the record-- Dilute New Gamboge has to me a slightly jaundiced appearance by itslef--greqt mixer for greens but to my eyes very ugly for say, a yellow area of sky because it has a greenish undertone. BTW this is not only me saying this, I've encountered manyu painters who see this clearly. Compare it to cad yellow on a clean palette of paper and you'll clearly see what I mean. Ther Davinci ayrlide yellow deep has no such green undertone | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2006 |
Darn, I'm jealous. I took a trip to Seattle in 2004 to visit Amazon.com (their invite) but no such treat has been since then. I had a few extra days with friends, but we only went to the art museum and a concert and I couldn't drag them to see paint dry (!) And I don't get "paid" vacations per se. But I've got it on my dream list to visit DS next time I get to Seattle. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 472 Registered: 8-2006 |
Joanna, I drop by Daniel Smith on every visit to Seattle (my grandchildren live there)-- I love seeing what's going on, and what's being done with color there! I'll check out permanent yellow deep at the source! | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 413 Registered: 8-2006 |
I use DS's permanent yellow deep [PY110 isoindolinone yellow R (1964) permanent yellow deep Daniel Smith]. I find this pigment refreshingly yellow in both dilute and almost neat paint "Daniel Smith permanent yellow deep is currently the only source I am aware of for the pure pigment in watercolors" handprint | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 466 Registered: 8-2006 |
Joanna, I understand. We are all unique individuals with our own biases, strengths and weaknesses. We make a good mix on this board. It good (essential!)to have technicians (color doctors?)like you and Marie on board to help us out when we get into the weeds. Moreover, you both are also great painters, far more than obsessive techs! And, yes, I have to admit there is a place and uses for a seemingly "pure" yellow, though, like you, I wonder if a truly "pure" primary really exists. Maimeri comes close enough for me, but then I am not all that astute or demanding, and I also have the male eye cones. Maybe I'm saying close does count in horseshoes and hand grenades, and certainly is sufficient for my level of painting. I take comfort in Tony Couch's rather casual choice of paint and cavalier comments about what they are as he paints -- and I think his paintings generally are very fresh and appealing visually, especially in terms of color. Maybe Bonnie has comments about his instructional videos for us. | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think I was putting sap green in the shadow to show the stem behind the sunlit petals. (As much as I can do that when painting ala prima more or less as this one is.) As to greenish tint in yellow, no problemo if that is what you want....if you touch blue ANYTHING you'll get that anyway. But if you are desiring a clear, warm yellow for whatever reason, you don't want green cool tints in there. So you choose a yellow with no green on purpose. And you scan your paint vendors to see who has a pure yellow. Maimeri tries to do this by selling a primary set that purports to be pure primaries (magenta, yellow and cyan) which is possibly baloney, I mean, bologna as how can any color (subtractive) be pure on the money? But they say they are close to center. Eh. It's an academic subject of interest to some, I guess. Like me! | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 463 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'm not sure I understand the concern about a greenish tint in the yellows used in most painting. Unless greens and blues are excluded from paintings that use yellow (and why would we want to avoid the contrasts, vibrations, and variety?), our eyes are going to pick up that tint from greens and blues that are adjacent to the yellows. Looking at Joanna's nice sunflower painting, I think I see a drift toward green in the shadows beneath the larger flower's center. It also occurs at the top of that center where the orange runs into the green and mixes on paper. What's the big deal? Sounds like we're analyzing colors to death, rather than diving in and enjoying what they do. I know we need the skills of a good doctor when the colors in our paintings are sick and dying, but most of them get along pretty well. I always enjoyed hearing frogs croak and splash in ponds more than seeing them splattered all over a dissecting tray. | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm not sure it would have any greenish tone: Here's from our dear Handprint friend: Nickel dioxine yellow PY153 is a very lightfast, semitransparent, lightly staining, nongranulating, light valued and very intense deep yellow pigment. .... Daniel Smith new gamboge and Winsor & Newton new gamboge are both warm, duochrome pigments; the Daniel Smith is more transparent and less staining and has the edge in color warmth. Both verge on a radiant yellowish orange in masstone. ... My own comparisons years ago of new gamboge WN with the genuine gamboge is that the nickel pigment is slightly less transparent and a bit more orange or brownish in masstone. Never saw any green. And I am a female--we have more cones, I believe, though right now I am not so accurate as my eyesight is the over 50 kind (gets duller, needs more light and eventually the lens starts to haze, at least in our family.) AS to yellows, like our dear friend Robert (may he be well and happy wherever he has gone) I agree that the Maimeri paints have beautiful tones of yellows. I like their version of Hansa Yellow called permanent Yellow (Am Journey Arylide yellow is Bumblebee Yellow) and their lemon yellow (which of course is greenish) is very nice as well. My personal favorite yellow is Indian Yellow (hue because the real euxanthate pigment purported to be composed of cows ill-fed on mango leaves and left to become dehydrated) is no longer available. If I have to use a yellow that is warm, I head for that color. This painting is mostly Indian Yellow (DS), Nickel titanate yellow (for opacity) with b.umber, quin sienna and carbazole violet, plus sap green.  | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 416 Registered: 8-2006 |
I love W/N new gamboge. I find no trace of green. Maybe Im color blind. | ||
A Unregistered guest |
I thought I'd contribute to this old thread becasue I've had the problem for years of finding the right yellow(s). I can't stand using deep yellows that have green undertones and most do. The worst offender is New Gamboge, a hideous pigment in my opinion. Cadmiums are nice but they are not good mixers in my opinion because they lend a powdery opaqueness to the mix. I have found a pair of yellows that, when I used them first, angels began singing --they are perfect: Da Vinci Arylide Yellow Da Vinci Arylide Yellow Deep These are transparent, not tinge of green in the deep and mix wonderfully with all of my blues. | ||
SpottedBear |
Well its September now and the leaves are slowly starting to turn so everyone who likes painting autumn colours will have a fresh view of brilliant yellows, reds, and oranges... play and mix the colours as best you like. We will never get it right as nature does but have fun trying! | ||
Eric |
I always use AJ Gamboge Hue for a warm yellow and sour lemon for a yellow that leans a bit in the cool direction. Mixing the two together makes a yellow that's in between the two. | ||
John Preston |
Midnight, To my eye Bumblebee looks like Cadmium Yellow Light but that's kind of relative since not every manufacturer pitches their light, medium, etc. the same. As to handling differences, the other yellows might tend to stain more and lift less than Cadmium and they will tend to be less opaque. Some may blossom more easily. | ||
midnight_baseball |
CAD YELLOW REPLACEMENT? i'm thinking of replacing my cadmium colors on my watercolor palette. great for brilliant intensity and natural flesh tones, but i'm finding they don't mix so well with other pigments (a bit too overpowering). yeah there are probably health concerns too. what are some suitable HUE replacements for cad yellow (i usually use WN or AJ cad yel light) and cad red (med)? winsor red/AJ redhotmomma seem to be close in hue (a little darker maybe) but i've never tried scarlet or vermillion. as for the cad yellow light what are suitable replacements for that hue? i already use hansa and aureolin. has anyone tried AJ bumblebee yellow? finally, what are the mixing advantages i would lose by giving up my cad colors? i know they're strong and intense and good for landscapes/flesh but is there something i'd be overlooking here - texture maybe? your opinions are greatly appreciated. | ||
SpottedBear |
Q: Are all Yellows and other primary colours created equal? I use whatever I can get on my palate but I do try to stay away from the cheaper paints. How do others feel/think about this? | ||
Raliegh |
I tried to post some work today for critque but was unable to do so, I decided to spend the time working on a new w/c. I think I'll try again tomorrow though. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to be critqued. My DH always says "thats nice"! | ||
Linda |
Re: yellow I love most 049 (quinacridone gold) because it is a duotone color that mixes well with other colors in both portraiture and landscapes. Cannot do without Y97 because of its lightfastness, transparency and saturation. Raw Sienna is my most used yellow. A light tint works for so many things, and darkly it has body, presence, and mixes well with others. This color I use most often (if not always) in landscapes, though I've used it sparingly in portraiture as well. Tend to avoid cadmiums overall because of Earth consciousness, though I will use it if the work screams for it (and I'll procrastinate using it, too). Because of these three, I really have no other yellow needs, however, I find I like to use Y42 by Winsor and Newton because of its transparency and the perfect skin colors it makes with so little mixing, needed for the many children I paint for my customers. I buy and use this color expecially for this single purpose. | ||
SpoteedBear |
So is everybody silent now? No more talk or ideas? | ||
SpottedBear |
So did we answer the "Yellow" question well enough? I wonder if others are like me? I use 3 on my palette and have a few other tubes in the large growing container of old and half-used paint tubes. I threw out the "cheap ones" that come in a beginner's set a long time ago once I tried the better quality brands later in my evolving art career. | ||
Suzy |
Eugene, we were there during the Vietnam war. I was just a kid. Home base was Hawaii. We waited out most of the war there but my Dad went back and forth to Saigon monthly. But yes, the Mariannas do have a certain appeal. Guam was big city for us then. But my heart never left Hawaii. | ||
Eugene |
Suzy, I was on Saipan in WW2. Lived near Garapan in an army anti-aircraft unit. A beautuful island! | ||
Raliegh |
Robert The glass balls are very common decoration on the old houses here in Hawaii. When you come for your visit look for them hanging from the porches. | ||
Robert |
Gosh, Thanks Suzy--that is so generous. As it turns out I just bid on some on ebay. I feel a little strange wanting to use someone else's idea, but the blue transparent bubble filled glass is so tempting to try to paint. I am very grateful for your offer. Thanks. | ||
Suzy aka |
Yes, not my work but gorgeous! And yes, float balls, I actually do own about a dozen that I personally collected as a child when I lived in the Saipan and Guam. They rarely float accross the ocean any more though. But, just last week I was in a store locally here in Florida and they had a ton of them...very cheap..like $3 each! If you want some, I'd be happy to mail them to you to develop in to a still life. They were at a store called "Old Time Pottery" | ||
Robert |
Suzy--sorry , I jusr realized i was looking at the work of a different artist--sorry: http://kukana.homestead.com/files/Float_Plan_with_mat_e.jpg | ||
Suzy |
OK, Robert, I have tons of stuff that I don't know the names of. What is a Japanese Glass float you are asking me about??? (Most of my stuff has technical names like .."that little dew-hicky, thing-a-ma-jig" | ||
Robert |
Oh BTW, my own experience with New Gamboge is that because of it's greenish undertone it would render very jaundiced flesh tones. I would unable to employ it in figure work. For figure work, the yellows I have best luck with are, besides the grum Finest Raw Sienna I metioned earlier, W/N Yellow Ochre and Cad. Yellow Pale. | ||
Robert |
My responses were specific to landscape. I don't think Maimerblu Indian yellow (which is isoindalone--other brands are different) works well for flesh tones. I prefer Grumbacher Finest (specifically only that brand --or its new incarnation, Prismacolor) Raw Sienna for the basis of my flesh tones. | ||
marie |
Thanks to everyone for the responses. It appears that a deep yellow, either New Gamboge or some flavor of Indian Yellow, is the common denominator across all the responses. I have usually stayed away from the deep yellows for the fear that it will make flesh tones too saturated, but I'm going to add it to my palette and see what happens. | ||
SpottedBear |
I use three yellows but usually Gambouge for under tone washes. Stronger yellows mix with other colors for desired effect(like autumn leaves) so it never is the exact same twice in a row, makes for an interesting effect each time in watercolour vs/vs acrylic. Play around with different brands and applications, but have fun. | ||
Eric |
I probably have too many yellows. Hansa, or lemon, and gamboge and if you count raw sienna, that makes three. Don't really use the lemon yellow much. | ||
Robert |
Like you Eugene I actually use only one yellow-- Maimeriblu Indian Yellow (Isoindolone)-- which is sort of like the mass tone of new gamboge even when thoroughly diluted. New Gamboge is definately dual toned, getting much more lemony in dilution. | ||
Eugene |
I don’t use much “real yellow” in my paintings. When I do I used W/N new gamboge almost exclusively. I can bias it toward a lemony color with just a touch of sap green or bias it toward orange with a touch of cad red. This suits me just fine. For greens, instead of mixing blue and yellow, I usually modify sap green by mixing it with raw sienna, raw umber,or burnt sienna. Sometimes, if I want a really sunny light green, I mix sap green and new gamboge. But then, I paint mostly landscapes. I can understand that if you paint florals and still life, one may want to have many more subtle shades of yellow. I’m not very scientific, don’t read the labels, (except for permanence) and select my colors mostly by trial and error. | ||
Robert |
BTW, Suzie, Where do you find japanese glass floats? I love your paintings of them. | ||
Robert |
Yes-- That is my most used pigment--posted several times in praise. It disperses aggresively because of ox gall but i use that to brush indian yellow back into dark passages for bounced sunlight. It is a little tacky (sticky) which is a negative, but there's nothing else remotely similar--totally unlike other indian yellows because it has no green undertone at all. Mixed with ultramarine blue you get a flat brown. But mixed with other, greener blues, you get great greens. Nice browns mixed with violet. | ||
Suzy |
Robert, have you ever tried Mameri blu INdian Yellow. It is in a class of its own. I LOVE it. It is one of my "Can't live without "colors | ||
Robert |
A few of the DR do disperse substantially, but most don't. In particular the permanent yellow is wild. It's a very intense mid yellow--quinopthalone that I was once considering as a main yellow. It is very "electric" but the hue is about the same a a mid axo. Handprint lists the dispersal rate right before the hue angle--4 is highly dispersant, 1 is non dispersant. | ||
Robert |
Hi Marie-- The DR burnt sienna is like a slightly muted quinacridone sienna by D/S more than a common burnt sienna. I like it. The Raw sienna is a bit too oily and opaque (it uses yellow ochre pigment), so I use Holbeinraw sienna (though in general too prone to impermanence, the Holbein earths of course are okay). Raw umber is not on my palette so I haven't tried the DR. | ||
marie |
I like the idea that the Daler-Rowney paints don't disperse wildly. What are their earth pigments like? I recall that you really like their burnt sienna. What about their raw sienna, yellow ochre, and raw umber? | ||
Robert |
Marie--this time without as many typos-- Daler-Rowney, while quite good (on the level of W/N), is my choice because the paint doesn't disperse as much wet in wet. They use little ox gall. Maimeriblu, filled with ox gall, on the other hand tends to shoot out wildly wet in wet. Rembrandt also uses little dispersant. Holbein, too, though so many of their pigments are of poor lightfastness that I avoid them on principle. (Which makes me wonder why Handprint doesn't come and say in the summary of companies that Holbein is second rate--all through handprint holbein paints are marked avoid yet his summary of the company is very kind--I find this inconsistent, especially when he smashes Daler-Rowney for rather minor issues that might be perceived as boons by another painter. He also praises maimeriblu to high even even though most of their paints are less concentrated than student grade paints). I also like Daler Rowney pthalos because they are weakly concentrated, intentionally so, for easier mixing. Van Gogh pthalos are good for the same reason. | ||
Robert |
Marie--I want tio empahsize that my reason for selecting daler roney is that they contain little ox gall and temd not to spread (in about 75% of the offerings) but stay where placed. Rembrandt is also good for this as is Holbein. | ||
Robert |
I think what must happen is the dye fades rather quickly and you are left with quinacridone magenta grayed by the faded dye mixed in. As an lightfast alternative Maimeriblu makes a very intense and bright quinacridone based paint called Rose Lake which, while not as outrageously radioactively bright as opera, is astoundingly bright and concentrated for a lightfast pigment. In the long run it will probably produce a brighter result especially once the fugitive dye in opera fades and leaves only the quin. magenta grayed by the faded dye in it. | ||
marie |
Thanks for your responses. Robert, based on your enthusiasm for the Daler Rowney paints, I will have to try them soon. As for Opera ... I haven't tried it, but Winsor & Newton's latest tech sheet says that its quinacridone magenta (PR122) and a "flourescent dye/resin based pigment." They rate the lightfastness as a "B", same as alizarin crimson and rose madder genuine. | ||
jandrle |
I use Winsor Newton. And a question while I am at it... I was at Pearl today and at the counter I saw a promotional tube of W&N Opera. It was free if $25 was spent on W&N watercolors. I, unfortunately only spent $22 and didn't get it, didn't know about it or would have picked up another tube, anyway, it said on the side that it was a quin. Has anyone heard of it? tried it? Is it as fugitive as Holbein's? I am not starting another raging conversation about Opera, just asking about this new color I saw. Guess I should check Handprint... | ||
Robert |
Which indian yellow-- There are almost as many pigments used as brands. | ||
jandrle |
I would have to say Indian Yellow. It makes things pop. | ||
Robert |
FWIW--- I have had the same problem. I have four in my palette-- Daler Rowney lemon (PY 3 Hansa Light)--unlike most brands this one is transparent, not chaulky. Winsor Newton cad. Yellow pale--for intense yellow passages--when I need a yellow as yellow, not a mixer. Maimeriblu Indian Yellow (Benzamidzalone plus a touch of quin gold)--an trans apricot yellow with no tendency to go green (as do almost all other trans yellow oranges). I use it to mix realistic greens with pthalos, and to mix great siennas and umbers with violet. (which takes the place of my earth colors usually). Daler Rowney Green Gold--for mixing beautiful greens with blues. Works as a yellow. If one wanted to use only one yellow I would recommend daler -Rowney Gamboge, which is a blend of Lemon Yellow and nickel something--the pigment that is New Gamboge. This is a great transparent mixer and will serve work in almost any direction you need a yelklow to go in. If I ever want to seriously limit my palette, I will go for Daler-Rowney Gamboge. | ||
marie |
I have never been able to settle on which yellow pigments to use -- cadmiums, azos, etc. There are so many saturated yellow pigments. Which yellows do you use most frequently and why? |
