| Author | Message | ||
  Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2006 |
by the way, Rublev goes under the site name of naturalpigments. I'm going to try some. I did mix up some of their recommended flesh tones, using green earth (Maimeri), burg. yellow ochre (Dan Smith) and venetian red (maimeri) as they were similar to the yellow earth, terre vert and terra sartorius (red ochre from Sardinia.) I got a range of olive skin to russet tones with pale tan. | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 454 Registered: 8-2006 |
I haven't heard of Rublev paints before. I'll have to check it out. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 522 Registered: 8-2006 |
Marie, you're our portrait specialist. Have you tried Rublev? If so, what did you find? Do you like them? What paints by other manufacturers approximate their qualities? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 521 Registered: 8-2006 |
Good find, Joanna. I haven't tried Rublev, but having access to paints that look and work like those of 18th and 19th century watercolourists is wonderful! It also appears that their moist tube paints, like Yarka and Holbein, remain semi-moist when poured into pans, either by the artist (in the case of Holbein) or the manufacturer (like Yarka). Here's what their web site says: "Unlike pan watercolors made with the extrusion process, Rublev Colours Watercolors are poured—a process preserving the integrity of each color and resulting in semi-moist cakes that respond instantly to a wet brush." | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 157 Registered: 10-2006 |
Speaking of paints and travel boxes, I saw an ad for Rublev Paints on Wet Canvas. They make natural pigment based paints, oil, acrylic and watercolor. They are offering small bijoux style boxes with several palettes of earth pigments based on 18th century watercolorists' paints. The prices are reasonable for these small travel boxes, which can be quite pricey. Some of the pigments are ones such as lazulite, lemon ochre, terra ercolano, green earth (terre verte) and such. I have not used their paints, either tube nor pan, but they look interesting. Maybe someone here has tried their paints? Anyone? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 520 Registered: 8-2006 |
I should correct my comment on Holbein paints being poured into pans. I should have said that my impression is that both Yarka and Holbein are persistently moist paints that often are poured by artists into pans and used like pan paints. (Of course all tube paints can be allowed to dry into pans, but the majority do not rework as easily as the paints of these two companies.) To be clear, Holbein does NOT pour its paints into pans for you (sell its paints in pan form), but it has manufactured a tube paint that pours and dries well in pans, does not become hard, cracked and chalky (within a reasonable time frame)and rewets easily. The bottom line is that both Yarka and Holbein manufacture paint in tubes, but only Yarka sells it in pan form. However, both Yarka and Holbein tube paints work well when allowed to dry into pans. I still would like to know if "Handprint" has updated its tests on Yarka or Holbein, or has plans to do so. Does anyone know? | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 514 Registered: 8-2006 |
Both Yarka and Holbein are semi moist and rewet easily, and I think both are poured into pans. I know there have been complaints about Yarka pigments being unstable, and I'm wondering if any testing has been done recently. What about Holbein? Has Handprint made any comments you know of about either of them? | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 154 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have not tried Holbein pans, but their tubes sit up well in the little pots. Their paints are very finely ground, and the humectant/medium may be gum arabic. I love their blues, pinks and yellows, so perhaps that is a good paint to try. The small 5 ml tubes are rather dinky, but one would do for filling a travel palette, and you can find them all over, sometimes on sale. Yarka is very well priced, but some of their pigments in past times were not stable. Maybe improved, I am not sure. There certainly is a strong art community in Russia, but mostly they are into drawings and oil paintings from galleries I've seen. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 512 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks once again, Joanna. I think Holbein and Yarka also pour their pans -- not sure which others. Anybody else want to chime in? | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 153 Registered: 10-2006 |
Not sure what tube paints rewet the best: possibly Schmincke, but I am not a fan really of their pigments. Hilary Page says they are fine paints, but my color chart shows more fading than with Dan Smith. The humectants are so different than in cake paint, but as I mentioned, Schmincke uses pour paint. If you want consistency, I'd use theirs. They may be using better paints: I used theirs before quinacridones were widely used. They make nice blues and greens. | ||
Eugene Senior Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2006 |
I don't travel or paint plein air anymore, but before I close my John Pike palette i put a damp sponge in the mixing area and it keeps my paints in fine condition. seems to me the same thing would work in a travel kit. In fact, I think my old van gogh kit has a small sponge in it. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 510 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks, Joanna. Do you find that the manufacturers who make the pans that rewet best, the semi-moist ones, also make the tube paints that rewet best? If not, what tube paints rewet the best in your experience? | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think Yarka uses honey as a humectant (water-holding substance as well as filler) and Daniel Smith, I am not sure. Am Journey (AKA Joe's AKA Davinci) uses dextrin possibly. This seems to make that delightful pasty consistency like hair gel, but I think it leads to the cracks in drying. Dextrin is a polysaccharide that thickens things up (I used to make up stuff with dextrins in the lab years and years ago.) Maybe honey rewets more easily than dextrin? Not sure. Winsor Newton extrudes cakes of paint and cuts them up into the half pans or whole pans. These take more remoistening, though they claim they are nice and soft. I find Van Gogh's paint yields up pigment with a nice touch of the brush. Very pleasant paints, if a bit unsubtle. Before semi-moist cakes (like WN, and Sennelier), cakes were dry and bringing them up moist took a real scrubbrush. I have an old old OLD set (1860's) I paid the earth for and if I were to be so dumb as to rewet it, the paints would take forever to get pigment out. They are hard cakes like tiles. And they were much like that, I am told, when they were manufactured. WN pioneered the semi-moist, if I recall. I've never tried either Maimeri or Holbein half pans as I have enough pans for my rare-these-days travels. I have enough trouble getting a day off, let along going anywhere. I don't know if Holbein pours theirs or extrudes. As I mentioned, Schmincke-Horadam pours theirs and you often find the half pans more easily than the tubes in Germany. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 508 Registered: 8-2006 |
Joanna & Whitewatercolor, thanks for the confirmation. I know my own experience, but I don't want to mislead or misinform someone, so it's nice to hear that you've had the same experience. Actually, when I was wondering about the experience you've had with rewetting pans, I should have made it clear that I was referring to tube paint that has been allowed to dry in pans. What is your experience with that? It is helpful, however, also to know what your experience has been with regular commercial pans. Thanks. Whitewatercolor, it must be that Holbein is doing similar things with its pan paint as it does with its tubes, since we've had similar experience. And, Joanna, you know how much I like Daniel Smith! Their paints do rewet fairly easily. I have also had good experience rewetting Yarka pans, though I realize there are some well-known objections to Yarka paint. | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2006 |
Oooh, I forgot, you can find travel brushes in bullet-cases, and a synthetic one is great for scrubbing up as it's less likely to be horrified by the rewetting/scrubbing than a nice sable brush. So carrying one cheaper synthetic brush like a Cotman or what have you (Joe's are rather nice) can be used to rewet and you can then save your pet sable brush as Griz is recommending. | ||
Joanna Advanced Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2006 |
Griz, I second the suggestion for Dreamer to pre-moisten the pans of paint. Also, various brands have different re-wetting properties (I carry a Van Gogh kit around for quick sketches.) Schmincke pours their paint rather than extrude cakes of it, so their pans look a bit goofy, but they are nice to re-wet. They have a lot of colors, too. I happen to use the VanGogh because the kit is nicely shaped and you can find them on sale here and there from time to time on places like Ebay and here, too. VanGogh is the student line of Rembrandt watercolors, and work pretty well. You can pour your own as well into saved pans; I found that I had less luck with the American Journey than with Winsor Newton or Daniel Smith (due to the filler used by Am Journey) but they all work to some extent. I have a grab and go kit with postcards for anytime I might be going to a scenic location. Or a place where I can do character sketches of people. | ||
Whitewatercolor Senior Member Username: Whitewatercolor Post Number: 328 Registered: 10-2006 |
The only pan paints I've ever used are Holbein. They work really well if you completely (as much water as the pan will hold) fill the pan with water and set the paints aside to let the paint absorb the water before you begin painting (30 minutes?). When the pan paint turns to the consistency of tube paint, it is ready to use. | ||
Grizrev Senior Member Username: Grizrev Post Number: 507 Registered: 8-2006 |
Dreamer, it's great to have you "on board!" Isn't this thread full of great information about pans and tubes? It's true that it is easier to use pans in the field and tubes in the studio, but both can be used in either place. For sketchers who paint in the field or while traveling, small pans that take smaller brushes may be just fine. However, if you are thinking about doing full sheet or half sheet paintings plein air and don't want to manage tubes, you might think about taking the oversize pans now available that better accommodate large brushes. It seems that the trick with using pans is to moisten them far enough in advance that they turn into more of a paste that comes to the brush fairly easily in strength, so that you don't need to scrub them with your brush and ruin your bristles. If you should need to scrub, do use your cheaper worn-out nylon brushes or the nylon waterbrushes. I'd be interested in knowing what tube paints rewet most easily after drying. From my limited experience, I have had the best luck with Holbein. What have others of you found from your experience? | ||
Dreamer New member Username: Dreamer Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2008 |
I am new to this forum thing, but, I've been searching the internet on watercolor travel kits for sketching journal. I enjoy watercolors, although I'm not that good, but, looking at travel journals by so many good artists, it intrigues me to want to do it for myself, mostly. I have found how to make your own using altoid mint boxes. I have ordered half pans and am going to attempt to make a couple. I have made a 14 pan 'travel' palette using a Prang 8 pan box and cutting three openings on each side to give me seven on each side, now. I had two of them from about 15 years ago, so, I made one from two boxes. I have done watercolor off and on for to many years and now I want to stay with it. I'm not a world traveler, but, I like to get around locally and there is more than enough around to keep active and occupied. The internet is a wonderful way to learn more about watercolor and how to use it. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 399 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks, Joanna, I shall buy paints in half pans when I run out of my current stock of tube paint. I wish I had known all these facts, never mentioned in any art book. | ||
Anonymous Painter Unregistered guest |
Gail, it's easy enough to make up half-pans of the colors you want. It's also quite easy to find boxes to put them into. In fact... I have about 4 small field boxes already.  Just last summer, although I already have a lovely little W/N metal box (Cotman really, but refilled with W/N tube paints in half-pans), I bought another from Ken Bromley because it was on sale.  The old one (which lives in my field kit at all times) officially held 14 half-pans, but by filling the space in the middle with 6 extra half-pans turned sideways, I was able to fit in 20. Of course, that's more than enough for any single painting... but since my entire palette is about 23 pigments, I bought the slightly bigger (on sale) one anyway. It was a nice box, cheap--and besides, they threw in all those extra Cotman paints in the half-pans. LOL I also have the Cotman Field Kit, a cute little plastic box that holds 12-13 half-pans, a teeny water bottle, traveling brush, tiny sponge, and has integrated water cup & fold-out palettes. It's really cute, and I have painted with it (pigments replaced with W/N artist's quality of my choice), but the metal field boxes are really much easier to use and to clean up, ime. Btw, the new flat (Niji) waterbrushes are absolutely wonderful for wetting or scrubbing the surface of half-pans. You can also paint with it. Waterbrushes generally are great for really quick & efficient sketching. Just clean up the brush with a paper towel--don't even need any open containers of water! | ||
Joanna Intermediate Member Username: Joanna Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Rehka: Well, tube paints have a hygroscopic extender like honey or glycerin to keep them moist. Pan paints also have glycerin, but less so. Have you ever opened a tube of cobalt violet and seen mostly clear syrup? That's the glycerin. I have a travel box of tubes and a metal palette, but I agree, pans are far easier when traveling. Different brands dry differently. I've had great luck with Daniel Smith drying into pans, less good luck with Am Journey. Schmincke pours their dry pans (as opposed to Winsor Newton, who extrude pigment cakes and cut them for half pans.) If you like half pans, why not buy Schmincke, who makes very nice moist pans. Maimeri also makes moist pans, but I have not tried them. I also have not tried drying their paints down in pans, but their yellows are nice and cheap enough to make an experiment of them. | ||
Rekha Senior Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 398 Registered: 8-2006 |
After using pans at the Drawing/Painting class I found using tubes a big pfaff. So I bought an empty pallete and empty half pans and transferred pigments from the tubes. I find that lemon yellow (Schminke, PY3) and cadmium yellow light (Schminke, PY35) are runny. Are tube paints generally runnier than pan paints? | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2006 |
No problem. By the way, I buy empty whole pans from Daniel Smith, and then fill them myself. Works pretty well. | ||
Rekha Advanced Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2006 |
My apologies | ||
Marie Senior Member Username: Marie Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2006 |
Unfortunately, those are half pans. I have no idea why you can't get whole pans in the U.S. | ||
Rekha Advanced Member Username: Rekha Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2006 |
But you do amazon.com/Winsor-Newton-Artists-Colour-Travel/dp/B000BLOA4U | ||
Landscaper Junior Member Username: Landscaper Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 |
Can anybody tell me why WN whole pans are not available in the U.S.A.? | ||
GailJR |
Thanks rainbow and will check out the DS fieldbox. Have fun and paint lots in Europe Kukana! Wish it were me. Are you going with a group? I did that in 2002 for 2 wks. in Italy. | ||
rainbow |
Daniel Smith has one on sale now--the 1/2 pan box that works with WN half pans or you can order their empty half pans and fill your own. The palette is on sale for $38.69 and holds 24 half pans. The empties are on sale for $3.15 for 10. | ||
Kukana |
Thanks Anonymous. Really very informative. I will try some for my travel kit.Im headed to Europe next week (I wonder if they come in Opera???? !!!!!) | ||
GailJR |
Lots of information. Thanks. I am looking for the small type of travel kit with the pans. It would be nice if you could buy their travel box and chose which paints you want to add to the box. Wouldn't that be more sensible? Everyone's choices are different to which colors they like. Thanks, for explaining about the difference between the pans and tubes. | ||
Anonymous |
Cited from http://www.handprint.com tube vs. pan Tube paints are efficient for mixing up large quantities of paint (for washes, large glazes, or just a really big painting). They are ready for mixing straight from the tube and dissolve quickly in water. Some artists claim that tube paints have a more vibrant color than pan paints, but I have not found that to be true — even when I measure the color difference digitally. I suspect difference may simply be due to the fact that it is easier to achieve a high concentration of paint and water with tube paints. Indeed, some artists use the paint straight from the tube. The disadvantages are that it's hard to judge exactly how much paint you need for any painting, so you usually end up with excess paint on your palette, which dries out anyway. And once tube paints are contaminated with other colors (particularly one of the phthalos), they are difficult to retrieve. Tubes are not a perfect packaging solution. Pigment and vehicle separate if the tube is infrequently used or has spent a long time hanging in the retailer's paint rack. The cap sticks if it is gummed up with paint. The tube can burst or the paint can dry out from prolonged exposure to heat or improper sealing. And tubes are bulky — they contain mostly water and gum arabic, and only 5% to 50% actual pigment. Dry pan colors have different advantages. They are quick to set up and paint with — just open your paint box and wet the cake — and very easy to clean up. If protected from moisture and extreme temperatures, they will store indefinitely. There is no wasted color, other than what you lose in your rinsing tubs or leave in your mixing areas. They are easy to clean if you pollute them with another color (villain phthalo again). And they are marvellously compact and easy to transport. The disadvantages of pan colors are that they require more fussing to moisten and mix up. They yield small quantities of color at first (though more when thoroughly moistened). Some pigments (such as earth pigments, viridian or rose madder genuine) form hard cakes that are more difficult to work with, and sometimes produce streaky color mixtures. The frequent rubbing of the cake required to moisten it or pick up paint can be hard on brushes, especially with the abrasive cobalt pigments. And pans are expensive for the amount of pigment they contain — anywhere from three to five times the cost of tube paints. Don't make the mistake of thinking that tube paints are for "real" artists and pans are for students or children. David Cox, Winslow Homer, J.S. Sargent, John Marin, Edward Hopper and Philip Pearlstein, to name a few, are among the many artists who preferred pan colors to tube paints, even in the studio. paints watercolors a brief history of watercolors tube vs. pan when to use paint tube tricks dry pan tricks liquid watercolors when to use As you might guess, these relative strengths and weaknesses make the two forms of color more appropriate for different applications. Pan colors are especially convenient for field work or small studio sketches. The folding dry pan palettes are light and compact, and the pans transport well — they dry out in a matter of minutes once the painting is finished, so they don't run together as you jostle your paint kit back down the mountain. If the pan paints are well made, they will soften quickly and with little water. (Pans are usually harder to get started the first few times they are used.) Dry pans are ideal for planning the palette for a painting. Experiment with paint combinations using the dry pans, and when you have the palette selection you want, squeeze out the painting colors from tubes. Pans are easy to switch in and out of your dry pan palettes, so you can always pack in exactly the colors you want to render a particular type of geography or atmosphere. (I keep assorted extra pans in my plein air paint kit in an empty Altoids mint tin.) Pan colors are fine to use for any small to medium sized painting, particularly when a large number of pigments are required in small quantities (for example, some botanical paintings) and large washes aren't required (botanical paintings again). I haven't seen any evidence that tube colors consistently look brighter or better than pan colors on the paper, since the pigments are identical in either form. Many painters get along just fine doing field paintings with tube colors; they carry the small size tubes (available from most brands except Daniel Smith and M. Graham) and squeeze them out into folding field palettes, which come in a variety of designs and sizes. A compromise approach is to squeeze out a quantity of tube colors in the studio onto a folding plastic or metal palette (or a flat palette with a snap on cover), and let the paints harden in the wells before transport to the field. Then they can be moistened on site and used in the normal way, though they can take longer to dry out once the painting is completed. For medium to large paintings, or mixing washes or glazes, tubes are definitely easier to use. The main trick is to judge how much color to squeeze out for each painting. Some artists simply work with a fixed palette, squeeze out plenty of color to start, and leave what's left to dry once the painting is done. To begin a new painting, they squeeze out fresh color to get the colors moistened, or spritz the dried paint with fresh water. (Some actually let the paint dry out before they ever start working, since they prefer the consistency of paint dissolved from a hard start.) Since these painters continually work with the same color selection, they only soak and clean out the palette when the paints get muddied or moldy, or are mostly used up. I don't work with tubes in that way. I squeeze out just enough paint for the requirements of each painting. I wet all the paints with a small amount of water, then dilute down and mix these thick solutions for color mixing. I find this uses less water in the long run, and lets me work more quickly once the painting is started. Usually there is little unused paint when I'm finished, so I discard what's left and clean the palette rather than save the paint for another session. If I haven't finished, I cover the palette to keep the paints for another day. All brands of tube paints rewet to their original brilliance after they have completely dried. It's better to let them dry than to try to keep them wet, since a puddle of wet paint will develop mold in a few days, and you'll have to clean up and start all over. | ||
Kukana |
How is pan paint different than squirting tube paint in a palette and letting it dry. I've always wondered...is it more concentrated or something? I've always seen those cute little boxes with the neat little squarea of paint and wondered if it was any differnt than my little palette that I squeeze my own into. | ||
rainbow |
I think it is Daniel Smith that offers one that is compatible with WN pans, or you can buy the little pans and put your tube paint in them to make your own pans. IF not DS, try Dick Blick. I don't have the catalogs in front of me or I would give the price and proper dealer. I'll try to look soon and post it. | ||
Robert |
Oh--I just realize that you want a pan palette--this I posted below is for tube paints--(which you can squirt in and let dry before closing and you have, essentially, pans). | ||
Robert |
I've tried a lot and have found a specific one to work best . It is under $10. here's the link http://www.oneshotsupplies.com/catalog/artistsupplies/palettes101-102.pdf. Look down on the right to "Folding watercolor Palette". SBEST J411254PLT Folding 20 well palette. I ran a strip of duct tape along the outside hinge for extra durability. I have several travel palettes and this is what I keep preferring to use because it is lightweight, compact but generous in size when open (trifold), stores brushes, and has big deep wells. | ||
GailJR |
Can you buy a inexpensive travel box and add your own 1/2 pans (of your choice) to it or do you have to buy an already made kit? I wanted something to have in the car. What travel box do you find works well? Thanks. |
